Project Kenway

Aye lads and betties, Welcome to Project "Kenway", a discussion about discovery, sailing, currents, pirates, etc.

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Non piratically speaking, the age of discovery is one of those topics being constantly overlooked at the forum (and the basis of what the "reality" is on the USNW; the age of discovery, until now, is entirely dependent on the planet Earth, which really doesn't make sense if you consider the physical geography of this planet, the sizes and shape of the oceans, trade and economic factors, etc. into account. There should be a threshold of what is practical to be real and what is not practical to be real on this). Take note of the access of the seafaring nations, like Bruellen, Insulo, Trentannia, Batavia, Matinenda, etc. as well as the dynamics of the currents and wind patterns on the Oceans.

This should certainly affect each others' histories, from the Sanese Sakoku, to the establishment of Shayden, Acadia, Folland, etc. to the demise of empires like Bruellen, Insulo, Trentannia to the Golden Age of Piracy so this will be a very large undertaking in the process. This needs the consensus and the guidance of ALL members in the union, since this is a huge chunk of information currently missing on each others' history leading us to invent some weirdly named people in weirdly dated stuff. This will also in some form streamline and simplify as well as help you establish your histories.

Have a good sailing lads and prepare for a massive dust off.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SKcEvfy--edjTKI_QGdr_STBD_1oLJAi9gypJYWNSpY/edit?usp=sharing

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CASE 1: VOYAGE BEFORE VASCO DA GAMA
http://www.usnw.net/t2080p30-project-kenway#40756

Humm very interesting. I would like to add that those countries mentioned aren't the only seafaring countries. We have Slavic and Nordic countries that are also very capable of such sea faring acts.

I said etc.

I know, it is just that many others will just push them aside

Very good thinking Carl.

I guess we start from the beginning. Finding all this new land. It could be that it was a commonly known fact that there was more land on Adonia, just that no nation had the means to colonise until a certain point in time.

Too little too late Carl, I'm afraid. You, me and a few others are the only ones with a roughly finished history for our nation (not counting Asmiriva 'cause Juls is hypocrite and liar ajajaja). Though, I like and support the initiative, there's more important tasks than a specific era when most of member states' histories aren't consolidated yet. But I'll surely take part of it, at some point.

As how histories should be written and planned, I thought of the following as a basis to work on:

Juls wrote:
Step One: Member set their domestic history and how they want their history to be.

Step Two: Everyone works on specific eras for global/international history.

Step Three: We work on major stuff like GAW.

Step Four: Great success!

I see what you did thar.

I would work on pre-history first and make my way to the modern age. That way you can work it so that the world makes real sense. The question of where did humans first evolve to use tools etc is a huge one. The reasons why it happened, why did they spread out and to which regions first, in which regions did agriculture first be invented and why there, why did some peoples, regions or even whole continents stay in a hunter-gatherer society until modern times. Then work your way to the first real empires (the Babylonians, Egyptians, Assyrians, Shang Dynasty). Find out why the Persians, Greeks and Romans became as powerful and where similar things might have happened on Adonia, including reasons for their downfall and the consequences of them (Dark Ages, loss of culture and knowledge).
We need a detailed history of the whole world and everyone should free his mind and not regard his own nation's history as he made it thus far as canon, but be open to changes that are based on reason and logic.
This proces, if followed, might change the world map considerably and really help this union forward.

(Dark Ages, loss of culture and knowledge).

Must we have a Dark Age?

And how would the world map change? You'll have to tread carefully there. The world map is one of the things that has the most strings attached, many will most likely argue.

Juls you are making it more harder by focusing on writing a heap of broken images rather than creating a coarse picture. We haven't even gone to the basics of this yet...

The reason why I am starting it at this, and not in European Dark Ages nor in the very beginning of Adonia is that this is really the first that everyone had contact with the rest of the world, hence the age of discovery. Ironically, the dark ages for Europeans did not happen with its Oriental counterparts (ie. Arabic scholars like al-Idrisi continued the work gathered from the Library of Alexandria).It is quite logical to create a stage-by-stage approach, but it should be done in a coarser and broader image that could be easily agreed upon. Think of it as a microscope, you never start with a 100x focus and a fine adjustment knob, but a 10x focus in a course adjustment knob. This is the empirical approach, and it is quite the simplest form of discovery out there and also quite the easiest way to revise stuff, not by writing a fine detail of a domestic history, let 2 quarrel, 1 loses and then revising it over and over again as new nations try to write their own and insert their nations at their own terms.

This is the also the point where half (estimate) of the USNW nations were colonized and settled with, so it is rather treacherous to think in a European sense, because you are effectively shutting down the beginning of each colony which evolved in the New World as Balisca, Acadia, Folland, etc.

As for the map, we would have to begin with a simple T-O map (quite easy) and work our way up. As you guys said, the map is pretty complex, but you have got to get to skeleton structure to understand it all.

You guys need to open your minds and not be pessimistic with this.

@Mike - not Connor, Edward

Well said Carl   

I didn't mean that there should be Dark Ages, or that they should be all over Adonia, but there could be. And as to how this proces will change the map, that would be different borders and more nations in one continent, less in another,... Not necessarely that we have to change player nations, though it could be, or people might want to, to have their nation fit the local history and culture better.

Well, Folland was first settled in 1610 I believe. As for Mitron, that's right here (straight from my wiki):
-Jonota Island was first discovered in 1632, by a passing Etruscan fleet that was charting the western coast of mainland Euphemia
-Later, in 1682, looking to help pay off the expenses of running the much larger Shayden and Acadia colonies, Etrusque claimed it a royal colony and put it up for auction. The Reynolds-Chevalier Company bid the most, winning control of this colony. (Jonota became a proprietary colony)
-In 1687, a new expedition was sent northward from New Uniden. (Osatta Island discovered. Within the next few years, mainland Mitron discovered)

That's the discovery timeline of Mitron. I figure that not a ton of people came to the western mainland because it was a tad difficult, but those are west coast discoveries. I know that Mitron switched hands sometime in the 1740s or 1750s to Trentannian control, which later caused our uprising.

Edit: I feel that colonization, on a small scale, should have started in the late, late 1500s. Most colonization of the Earth's New World (Quebec, Jamestown, St. Augustine) was in the late 1590s or very early 1600s. The -whatever it's called ocean- is smaller than the Atlantic, so it would've been colonized earlier, imo.

Also, this comes at a bad time for me. I've been brainstorming the second half of the 1800s and the first half or so of the 1900s in Mitronan history, so my mind isn't here in this timeframe. Hopefully we can just get a nice outline or so and then we can move on to other important parts of history, we need to get an outline of everything and then we can work on details.

Carl wrote:Juls you are making it more harder by focusing on writing a heap of broken images rather than creating a coarse picture. We haven't even gone to the basics of this yet...

The reason why I am starting it at this, and not in European Dark Ages nor in the very beginning of Adonia is that this is really the first that everyone had contact with the rest of the world, hence the age of discovery. Ironically, the dark ages for Europeans did not happen with its Oriental counterparts (ie. Arabic scholars like al-Idrisi continued the work gathered from the Library of Alexandria).It is quite logical to create a stage-by-stage approach, but it should be done in a coarser and broader image that could be easily agreed upon. Think of it as a microscope, you never start with a 100x focus and a fine adjustment knob, but a 10x focus in a course adjustment knob. This is the empirical approach, and it is quite the simplest form of discovery out there and also quite the easiest way to revise stuff, not by writing a fine detail of a domestic history, let 2 quarrel, 1 loses and then revising it over and over again as new nations try to write their own and insert their nations at their own terms.

This is the also the point where half (estimate) of the USNW nations were colonized and settled with, so it is rather treacherous to think in a European sense, because you are effectively shutting down the beginning of each colony which evolved in the New World as Balisca, Acadia, Folland, etc.

So you're suggesting to work on the discovery age prior to having established anything else   well, that's just illogical. To make a project, you don't start with the middle section because more people will participate in that section of the project when you actually can't even work on that section since the first sections weren't done or developed at all. It's like wanting to bake a cake without having any ingredients or prepared anything and just be like: a cake will magically appear and be baked.

The point of having a done domestic history is to ensure that everyone has in the end what he desires. Ofc, I'm open to other approaches, but starting off with the discovery age would necessitate too much trial and error and too little tit for tat to be efficient.

Also, Qorten makes a good point and a good plan.

Yes Juls we are starting from the middle, seems illogical, but this is the first time that we have global contact. Issues that come before this period, such as the dark ages and the Roman Empire, can be put in a regional and domestic concern. Do I look like I would care about Roman History or even the paintings at Lascaux if my focus is Japanese History?

There are certainly not a lot things to change with this one, contrary to your argument. I mean, you have been using the "realism" argument lately, and this is such an opportunity to clarify a small yet important part. If you continue with that, would things even be completed at this scale before we can even begin this? None of the roleplaying nations/worlds have theirs done in the context you are implying (not even this world's history; do you think I know the domestic history of Azerbaijan? How come do I still understand the full context of the contemporary world without even understanding the implications of history in Azerbaijan?), it is almost as close to absurd to continue pasting heaps of broken images and then creating an illogical picture out of it. That's why we start from the bottom of the common pyramid, the global context rather than the regional context, and this period is near the bottom of the time frame of the global context (Ancient Migrations and Physical History of Adonia can begin here, but they are more understood in a Geographical Sense, rather than a historical sense of idea.)

"What he desires" isn't going to work here anymore. Look, you are suggesting that can be done, but when I see "this shouldn't have happened" or "this should happen" on your and everyone's opinions at the application of member nations within the USNW, it does raise red flags that people had conflicting desires and therefore, their history is practically useless and you insert a 'corrupted' version of history that you desire (we are all guilty of this; you can see Agunter's stuff, your response on Kwangju reunification, etc.). So instead of us fighting over the smallest of things, we can argue for the big things and actually make a significant progress.

I mean, we're only starting with a map and some navigational arrows, it wouldn't hurt at all.

^^^

True dat brothu.

Too much text...eyes, blurry...hard to focus...

ALIENS PUT US HERE THEREFORE WE ARE.

There, wasn't so hard.

I propose we make a Google doc for a New World timeline. Thoughts? I'd like to get this done ASAP so we can work on in this order: 1) Colonial independences 2) Wars of the 1700s & 1800s 3) Revolutionary inventions [steam engine, lightbulb, etc.] 4) Early 20th century wars 5) GAW

Now that's a rough outline but that covers a lot of major, global things imo.

I guess we can skip the Classic period, but shouldn't we at least agree on where people first evolved to use tools and a time scale when people first moved where and when they began to use agriculture? Anything besides that I agree can be discussed between regional members, but those things I mentioned really are the basics that started it all and should be agreed upon once and for all.

The original distribution of ethnicitities/races, you know, yellow peoples, black peoples, white peoples, coffee-and-milk-color-peoples, red peoples, too, kind of important so that people know who they colonized and who is living with them in the country they colonized or who they/the diseases they carried massacred when they came to the lands they colonized, brutally said. If this sounds harsh, I may be slightly inebriated, no offense.

Just my honest opinion. Completely happy to discuss the Age of Discovery afterwards and see whether I need to change the location or ethnicity or history of my nation, as far as I have one.
Everyone should contribute to the discussion.

I'm pretty sure there was a land bridge from Neridea through those islands to Althena (you can check the map Qorten) and I suppose we might need to make a map edit for a plausible land bridge from Neridea to Euphemia & Itzamna.

As for who we colonized, I know in Mitron we colonized the Ohcans and Pudgets. The Ohcans were who the first settlers met and we were very nice to the Ohcans, they became our allies and friends. In the 1860s we fought a war with the Pudgets (similar to the Indian Wars of the US but on a smaller scale). That's Mitron's part of that question of who was where.

Also, welcome to the community Qorten. I haven't given you a proper hello yet.

Bonjour, Qorten. Je m'appelle Chris, et j'ai Mitron en Euphemia. (I'm assuming you know French, and I'm only a sophomore in high school so that's French 2 language. No translation tool used at all. )

Carl wrote:Yes Juls we are starting from the middle, seems illogical, but this is the first time that we have global contact. Issues that come before this period, such as the dark ages and the Roman Empire, can be put in a regional and domestic concern. Do I look like I would care about Roman History or even the paintings at Lascaux if my focus is Japanese History?

Every history is linked. You not caring doesn't change anything.

Carl wrote:There are certainly not a lot things to change with this one, contrary to your argument. I mean, you have been using the "realism" argument lately, and this is such an opportunity to clarify a small yet important part. If you continue with that, would things even be completed at this scale before we can even begin this? None of the roleplaying nations/worlds have theirs done in the context you are implying (not even this world's history; do you think I know the domestic history of Azerbaijan? How come do I still understand the full context of the contemporary world without even understanding the implications of history in Azerbaijan?), it is almost as close to absurd to continue pasting heaps of broken images and then creating an illogical picture out of it. That's why we start from the bottom of the common pyramid, the global context rather than the regional context, and this period is near the bottom of the time frame of the global context (Ancient Migrations and Physical History of Adonia can begin here, but they are more understood in a Geographical Sense, rather than a historical sense of idea.)

>implying you understand the full context of the contemporary world (which you don't, nor do I, nor anyone)
>implying there's an agreed contemporary context in Adonia
>implying we can start to work on the age of discovery when there's nothing already set on granit
>implying it won't be a mess of "well Insulo discovered this" with no "why did Insulo came to have to explore?" aksed.

Now we're not arguing about realism, we're arguing about a logical way to work on the global Adonian history. NPCs aren't even set up. There are still so much undecided things, for the few who made histories, it's full of flaws because there's only a few who worked on their history and there's nothing set.

All I say is to start by the start and go from there, no jump blindly in an era just because more countries are involved. People use the "this isn't Earth" argument (which isn't one as I pointed out, you agree with it or not), but undeniably end up basing their stuff on Earth. Now that's not a bad thing, but if everyone wants so much originality, history is the basic part to start off with. Not only will it be easier and more productive to work in a linear timeline from old times to modern times, but it'll give us the opportunity to not copy Earth's global history in the process and do things our ways.

Carl wrote:"What he desires" isn't going to work here anymore. Look, you are suggesting that can be done, but when I see "this shouldn't have happened"  or "this should happen" on your and everyone's opinions at the application of member nations within the USNW, it does raise red flags that people had conflicting desires and therefore, their history is practically useless and you insert a 'corrupted' version of history that you desire (we are all guilty of this; you can see Agunter's stuff, your response on Kwangju reunification, etc.). So instead of us fighting over the smallest of things, we can argue for the big things and actually make a significant progress.

I agree, but as long as it's constructive arguing, like we're doing atm, and not people being butthurt over being criticized. What everyone desires is important to know and has a huge impact on what we'll all decide as a community, but it doesn't mean what they desire isn't unrealistic or not wanted by the majority. For example, say I want Asmiriva to have controlled all of Althena at one point in history, I wouldn't mind anyone telling me it's some stupid ass idea.

Carl wrote:I mean, we're only starting with a map and some navigational arrows, it wouldn't hurt at all.

I just see it as unproductive, but do it if you want to do it

@Chris: He's flemish, y'know.

Blakeway4 wrote:
@Chris: He's flemish, y'know.

Oui, je suis flamand, mais je parle un peu de français. C'était mieux quand je suis à l'école que aujourdhui parce que je n'ai pas parler le français beaucoup depuis dix ans.    

Only checked Google Translate to check on spelling. But, Juls is right, my english is much better then my french, I even speak german better then french.

I feel like Juls is taking a flame war to Carl

I thought my theory on human evolution and movement is fine, so that stuff is covered IMO. Qorten, you have a Skype?

Quoten you speak Flemish then

On both questions yes.